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Posts Tagged ‘Paleo’

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To Bean Or Not To Bean, That Is The Question (Legumes, Lectins, and Human Health)

Tuesday, January 31st, 2012

Today we feature another blog post form our first guest contributor, JD Moyer of the blog Systems for Living Well:

These days, many people across the world are wondering if they should eat beans, or not.

Right now, this very minute, there are two powerful, but opposing, dietary trends speeding towards a potentially explosive head-on collision.

On the one side the paleolithic (or “Stone Age“) style of eating, a dietary/lifestyle system that eschews grains, legumes, sugar, and all processed foods in favor of quality meats, poultry, fish, vegetables, fruit, and healthful fats.  This is the anti-bean side.

On the other side is the fad-diet du jour, Tim Ferriss’s “slow-carb diet” as described in the bestselling The 4-Hour Body.  Ferriss unabashedly recommends legumes.  Indeed, he suggests eating beans or lentils with every meal (but forbids grains, fruit, and dairy products — except on the once-per-week “binge day,” during which all foods are allowed).

Ferriss must be acknowledged as a cultural force in his own right; he is a master marketer with legions of supportive blog readers (myself among them).  His efforts have propelled both of his books to the #1 spot of the New York Times nonfiction bestsellers list.  He has recently appeared on both The View and Dr. Oz pushing his slow-carb diet, sleep gadgets, and anatomically precise better-sex tips.

Especially among the California/Silicon Valley/San Francisco/young techy professional set, 4-Hour Body is extremely influential.  Just the other night at Ignite SF, a friend mentioned she was “going home to eat some beans.”  When Ferriss says eat beans, people eat beans.  Ferriss constitutes the current vanguard of the pro-bean side.

Before we evaluate the evidence for and against legumes, let’s see who all is taking sides:

Pro-bean Anti-bean
Tim Ferriss (4-Hour Body)
Dan Buettner (Blue Zone)
Andrew Weil (
Pythagoras (Ionian philosopher)
Loren Cordain (The Paleo Diet)
Robb Wolf (The Paleo Solution)

Each link goes to a discussion of the health advocate’s recommendation for or against legumes.

Other health gurus take a more nuanced stance.  Mark Sisson, from whom I take my own dietary cues, is generally against eating beans and legumes, but acknowledges possible health benefits from eating nattō (a fermented soybean paste with is extremely high in vitamin K2).  PāNu blogger Kurt Harris, M.D., another advocate of the paleolithic diet, suggests eliminating beans but gives it a low priority (#11) on his 12 steps to improving health.

The Evidence Against Beans

Contrary to conventional dietary wisdom, paleo diet advocates say you should NOT eat beans.  Why not?

1.  Beans are hard to digest (the musical fruit).
Beans that are not properly soaked, drained, boiled, drained-again, and slow-cooked can result in severe digestive stress.  Even under the best of circumstances, beans can you make fart more.

2.  Beans can aggravate auto-immune diseases.
All legumes (beans, but also tofu, soy-milk, peas, lentils, and peanuts) contain lectinsSome of these lectins are implicated in IBS, Crohn’s disease, arthritis, multiple sclerosis, peptic ulcers, allergies, and Type 2 diabetes.

3.  Beans are high in starch and carbohydrates.
Beans are a starchy food, high in carbohydrates.  Eating significant amounts of beans may interfere with weight loss.

4. Beans contain estrogen mimics, which can be harmful to health.
Beans, especially soybeans but also fava beans and other beans, contain phytoestrogens — weak estrogen mimics that can interfere with hormone function.  Phytoestrogens evolved in plants as a defense mechanism, a way to disrupt the reproductive success of predators.  Red clover (a legume) has been shown to disrupt reproduction in animals.

Male infants and toddlers are probably the most vulnerable to the negative effects of a high legume diet, as is discussed in this article by Kaayla Daniel of the Weston Price Foundation.  From the article:

Every week I get agonized letters from parents who fed their sons soy infant formula and who report estrogenized boys who are flabby, lethargic, high strung and/or embarrassed by breasts and underdeveloped genitals.   These parents want to know, “What can we do now?”

Disturbing.  Do not feed your infant soy formula.

5. Beans can shrink your brain.
An even more heinous side-effect of eating soybean products frequently may be brain shrinkage.

I kid you not.  One study looked at autopsies of nearly 4000 Hawaiian men, and compared brain weight results with dietary habits.  The men who had eaten the most tofu and soy had smaller brain sizes and a higher chance (more than double) of developing Alzheimer’s disease.  The linked article mentions a possible mechanism; phytic acid in soybeans interferes with vitamin B12 absorption (which is independently associated with brain shrinkage and dementia).  In most beans, phytic acid can be greatly reduced by soaking, draining, and boiling, but soybeans retain high amounts even when cooked.

6. Lentils might make you fat.
Tim Ferriss recommends eating generous portions of legumes as a part of his “slow carb” weight loss diet.  In The 4-Hour Body he mentions lentils as being one of his favorite legumes.

But can lentils make you fat?  There is some evidence that the lentil lectin binds weakly to the insulin receptor, setting cells to “always on” for fat production.  That’s Peter J. D’Adamo’s hypothesis in Eat Right For Your Type.  Though many of D’Adamo’s ideas are speculative and not supported by the evidence, he should at least be credited with bringing lectins into the public consciousness.

7.  Many brands of canned beans have bisphenol A in the can lining.
People who eat beans don’t necessarily have the time or inclination to properly soak them, drain them, boil them, drain them again, and then slow-cook them.  Canned beans are the logical alternative to time-consuming preparation.

The problem with canned foods is that the plastic can linings often contain bisphenol A (BPA), a powerful endocrine disruptor.  BPA is strongly associated with heart disease, prostate cancer, breast cancer, miscarriage, erectile dysfunction, and abnormal reproductive development in children.  We should all be staying away from the stuff.  For most people, canned food, soda, and plastic bottles/cups are the main sources of BPA.

Trader Joe’s states that their canned beans are BPA-free (though their canned tomatoes and soups do contain BPA).  Eden Organic beans are also BPA-free.

The Evidence in Support of Beans

1.  Beans are high in protein and fiber.
Not everyone enjoys a high-meat diet.  For people who prefer to not consume animal protein at every meal, beans provide a decent amount of protein.  Because they’re high in fiber, they’re also quite filling.

2.  Beans provide a steady source of glucose for energy.
Consuming high amounts of fructose (the sugar found in fruit, corn syrup, and agave nectar) is associated with gaining belly fat, poor insulin sensitivity, increased risk of heart disease, and higher LDL levels.  Table sugar is not exempt — sucrose is half glucose and half fructose.

Ferriss recommends eliminating fructose entirely (except on cheat days), and using legumes as a carbohydrate source.  The starch in beans breaks down into glucose.  Too much glucose can still make you fat, but the fat will be subcutaneous (under the skin) fat, which isn’t associated with disease as much as abdominal fat.

Ferriss claims his “slow-carb” diet has a high rate of compliance, and that one reason for this is the steady energy provided by legumes.  It’s true that switching too quickly to a low-carb diet can result in energy crashes; the body needs a few weeks to adjust to using different kinds of fuel (including dietary fat, stored body fat, glycogen, and even lactic acid).

However, most “carb withdrawal” has nothing to do with blood sugar levels.  Except in cases of diabetes, the body regulates blood sugar within a tight range, via insulin and glucagon.  Most “carb withdrawal” symptoms are in fact exorphin withdrawal symptoms.  Beans, which do not contain food opioids, will not protect you from the aches, fatigue, and flu-like symptoms some people get when giving up wheat and dairy.

3. Beans are high in folate and iron, and have appreciable amounts of magnesium, manganese, copper, selenium, molybdenum, and antioxidants.
Beans are not nutritionally empty.  Depending on the legume, beans can provide decent amounts of a few vitamins and many minerals.

As for the anti-nutrients, phytic acid and lectins, most can be soaked/drained and cooked out.  If you don’t mind having a frothing bowl of beans on your counter (I do), then you can effectively remove most of the anti-nutrients.  Soaking is most effective for getting rid of phytic acid, and boiling is most effective for reducing lectin levels.  Do not slow-cook beans without boiling first.  Slow cooked kidney beans and red beans (often in the form of chili) lead to dozens of cases of lectin poisoning in the U.S. every year.

4.  Beans are associated with reduced risk of colon cancer.
If the evidence holds up, this is a pretty big win for beans.  Colorectal cancer is a relatively common, very serious disease (second only to lung cancer in lethality).

One clinical trial that looked at over 2,000 adults with precancerous colon polyps found that those people who ate more beans over a four year period had fewer “advanced” polyps and less cancer.  Those that increased fruit and vegetables in their diets, but not beans, did not enjoy the same protective effects.

If eating beans actually does reduce the chance of colorectal cancer, what’s the mechanism?  One theory is that the nondigestible carbs in beans are broken down (by gut flora) into the short-chain fatty acid butyrate, which has anti-inflammatory and anticancer properties.  Various phytonutrients in beans may act synergystically to prevent cancer in other ways.

One interesting possibility, for which there is strong evidence, is that a lectin in broad beans forces colon cancer cells to differentiate.  Could it be that not all lectins are bad?

Beans vs. Meat

I think some members of the “paleo community” are guilty of unsophisticated categorical thinking (meat is GOOD — grains & beans are BAD).  Instead of looking at the evidence regarding specific foods and the possible benefits of drawbacks of those foods (from all perspectives, including health effects, ease of preparation, taste and culinary possibilities), they eliminate entire food groups and exalt others.

Take bacon, for example.  Love for bacon has reached fetishistic heights among paleo bloggers.  Mark Sisson and Kurt Harris are both on the pro-bacon bandwagon (otherwise, I agree with 90+% of what both these guys recommend).  This salt and nitrite-laden meat-product is delicious, but please don’t try to claim that it’s good for you.  Processed meats (including bacon) are implicated in colon cancer and other diseases.  While saturated fats are not to be feared, nitrites, and to a lesser extent salt, should be.

Unprocessed red meat may also slightly raise the chance of colon cancer, but the risks are less than those incurred by obesity or lack of exercise.  And before you smack me in the face with your copy of The China Study, please read this detailed critique by nutrition blogger Denise Minger.

Maybe the solution is to eat some beans with your bacon.

Beans vs. Fruit

Back to fructose for a minute — Ferriss’s book recommends cutting out all fruit.  While it makes sense to limit fructose, let’s consider how many blueberries a person would have to eat to get the same amount of fructose delivered by a regular 12oz can of Coke (36g carbs mostly from HFCS).  By my rough calculations, that’s about the same as two cups of blueberries.  Three whole grapefruit would also do it.  I really don’t see a good reason for not eating half a cup of blueberries or a half grapefruit with breakfast — it’s just not that much fructose, and both fruits are high in vitamins and other phytonutrients.  On the other hand, a large banana, or 12oz of orange juice, delivers about as much fructose as the can of soda.

For steady weight-loss, Ferriss may be on to something when he recommends beans over fruit.  But you’ll probably get the same benefits if you eat some beans and some less-sweet fruit (tart apples, berries, grapefruit, kiwis, etc.).

The Bottom Line — Who Should Eat Beans

The way I see it, there’s no reason to fear properly cooked beans.  There is also no reason to force yourself to eat them.

If you don’t like beans, but still want to avoid colon cancer (who doesn’t?), there are many ways to reduce risk.  Stay lean, exercise regularly, don’t eat processed and cured meats, keep your vitamin D levels high, and eat broccoli, cauliflower, and cabbage.  Raw sauerkraut may be especially beneficial.

Nobody should eat large amounts of soy, in any form, though tiny cubes of tofu in miso soup won’t hurt you.  Red beans and kidney beans are risky unless you know how they’ve been prepared.  Canned beans may come with an unwelcome dose of BPA.

Anybody who has Crohn’s, ulcerative colitis, IBS, multiple sclerosis, or arthritis should avoid beans.  Lectins can tear up the intestinal lining, causing “leaky gut.” Leaky gut, in turn, leads to autoimmune problems.  In terms of lectins, dairy products, grains, peanuts and nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers), are potentially as problematic as beans.

Beans and lentils aren’t an ideal fat-loss food unless you get lots of exercise, both because of starch content and possible lectin-insulin problems (at least with lentils).  But properly prepared (soaked, drained, boiled, and slow-cooked) beans are probably a better choice than bread or bananas.

For many people, one of the joys of the paleo diet is that they don’t have to eat beans (or oatmeal, or any of a long list of bland, boring foods).  Conventional wisdom (and Tim Ferriss), push beans as a kind of wonder food, but that’s just not the case.  You don’t have to eat beans to achieve vibrant health.  Many people, like this woman, respond very well to cutting out both grains and beans, but keeping some fruit in the diet (Mark Sisson’s “primal” diet).

Food Avoidance and The Great Carb Debate

I’m fascinated by how food affects health, but I also just enjoy eating.  I hope to never get cancer or heart disease, but chances are very good that something will kill me eventually (ideally it will be something exciting, like a genetically engineered dinosaur, or a falling disco ball, or lightning, or an orgy).  Dying from complications due to eating too many lectins, gluten, nitrites, or fructose does not strike me as a good way to go out, so I try to limit my intake of those substances.

I do eat beans once in awhile, usually canned pinto or black beans from Trader Joes, or white butter beans in a salad.  If I go out to Mexican food I’ll usually eat some meat and refried beans but skip the tortillas and rice.

Dr. Kurt Harris writes the popular Archevor blog.

I agree with Kurt Harris that consuming some carbs is easier on the body than consuming zero carbs or lots of carbs.  Going into ketosis now and then won’t hurt you, but long-term ketosis can deplete calcium and selenium, give you bad breath, cause a metallic taste in the mouth, and lead to mental dullness and sluggishness.  It’s easy to stay out of ketosis by consuming some carbs.  Wheat products, syrups, desserts, and sweet fruits are not ideal choices.  Vegetables, berries, properly cooked beans, and even dark chocolate are good choices.  Some rice is probably also fine for people who exercise a great deal.

I find the whole notion of avoiding carbohydrates altogether to be faintly ridiculous … somewhat akin to avoiding nitrogen or carbon.  Avoiding a specific class of chemicals, like lectins, makes more sense, but even then you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Some lectins may be good for us.

On the whole, I agree with the premises of the paleolithic diet — we’ll be healthier if we eat high quality meats, poultry, fish, eggs, vegetables, and nuts than if we eat “neolithic” foods (processed foods, sugary desserts, grains and legumes, fruit juice, etc.).  What I’m skeptical of is the idea that observing any set of dietary rules strictly will make us healthier.  We did, after all, evolve to be adaptable creatures, with a robustly flexible digestive system.  We’re more like rats than we are like panda bears (who eat only bamboo), koala bears (who pretty much just eat eucalyptus), or lions (who just eat meat).

On the other hand, I’ve noticed that my enjoyment of food has only increased with a slightly more restrictive diet.  The less sugar and fruit I eat, the sweeter all food tastes.  Same thing goes for salt.  Our palate can quickly adjust to a new “normal.”  And since I’ve cut out grains for the most part, I eat a much wider variety of meats and vegetables, mostly cooked in pastured butter.  It all tastes damn good.  A more restrictive diet doesn’t necessarily correspond to less enjoyment of food.

J.D. Moyer blogs at about health, nutrition, psychology, self-improvement, creative work, and “systems for living well.”

Paleo vs. Vegan, a Battle of Straw Men

Saturday, January 14th, 2012

Today we feature a blog post form our first guest contributor, JD Moyer who authors Systems for Living Well; a blog I highly recommend you check out!

Watching the paleo vs. vegan blog battles is entertaining, but frustrating. Each side likes to make well-reasoned arguments against positions the other side isn’t really taking. The proponents of veganism like to pretend that paleo-eaters only eat meat and cheese (in other words, paleo = zero-carb = extreme Atkins), while some paleo advocates lump vegans and fruitarians together, or imagine that vegans eat soy products every single meal.

For example, Dan Pardi of Dan’s Plan recently forwarded me this series of videos from Don Matesz of the Primal Wisdom blog. Don, a formerly enthusiastic proponent of the paleolithic diet, has switched to veganism and is now condemning the paleolithic way of eating. I’ve watched about half the series so far and I haven’t found it very convincing. Most of it seems to be an attack on low-carb, high saturated fat, low fiber diets, which is not necessarily the same as a paleo diet. Most variations of the paleo diet are medium-to-high fiber (from vegetables and fruits), medium carb (from fresh fruit and starchy tubers), and some “seafood only” variations of the paleo diet are extremely low in saturated fats.

The truth is, there is a great deal of consensus on many health topic among paleo-eaters and vegans. Both sides agree that:

  • eating fruits and vegetables is health promoting
  • animals should be treated humanely (with enough space, social contact with their own kind, fed food that doesn’t cause digestive distress, not abused, etc.)
  • organic, sustainable agriculture is superior to conventional agriculture, both in terms of environmental impact and nutritional quality
  • moderate intake of healthful fats (Omega-3 and monosaturated fats) is health-promoting
  • trans-fats, refined sugar, refined vegetable oils, and refined flour are terrible for health

Of course there are points of disagreement. Does high saturated fat intake usually lead to heart disease? Does high gluten intake often lead to gut inflammation? I would say probably no, and probably yes, respectively, but I might be wrong. I try to keep up with the research, and base my own behavior on the most reputable, most widely replicated clinical studies. My own mind has changed in the past. In my late teens and early twenties I was an evangelical vegetarian. I was incredibly annoying. I’m done telling people how they should eat — I only want to share what I’ve learned so far in a take-it-or-leave-it format.

Your enemy is not the health enthusiast who disagrees with you. It’s a difficult fact to accept, but it’s true; different diets work well for different people. If someone finds a diet that works well for them, we should let them eat it in peace.

The real enemy is the Standard American Diet (fast-food, i.e. factory-farmed meat cooked in rancid vegetable oil, served with genetically modified, conventionally grown, pesticide-laced, uber-refined soy/corn/wheat concoctions, served with a vat of carbonated high fructose corn-syrup).

I’m not a fan of most vegans diets, but many vegan diets are closer to a healthful diet than a fast-food diet. A vegan diet based on gluten-free grains, minus the soy, plus some low-mercury fish (sardines, wild-caught salmon, etc.), would probably work out pretty well for most people. Yes, I know it’s not vegan if you add fish, but it’s just one dietary step away from excellent health (some extra protein, B12, and Omega-3 fatty acids). And some people seem able to thrive on a pure vegan diet (for example, Derek Tresize).

Vegans are not the enemy. Industrialized food production systems that want to feed you manufactured Franken-foods are the enemy.

Vegans should stop worrying about ancestral health enthusiasts as well. Millions of people, including myself, have restored their health by cutting most refined sugars and oils, grain products, and legumes out of their diets. Many paleo/ancestral health enthusiasts don’t eat any dairy products at all, and many more don’t eat red meat. Vegans, paleolethic diet advocates are not the enemy. McDonalds is the enemy.

You know who the biggest enemy is? Public school systems that feed our children tater tots, chicken fingers, chocolate milk, and soda for lunch. And don’t forget the plastic containers and bottles treated with bisphenol-A.

Health enthusiasts, let’s spend less time and energy arguing about the finer points of diet, and focus on taking action on the things we can agree on. More fresh vegetables and fruits, more healthful fats, more nutrient-dense high-quality food, less trans-fats and refined vegetable oil, less refined sugar, less white flour, less processed food, and fewer health-damaging chemical additives and preservatives. Especially for our kids!


J.D. Moyer blogs at about health, nutrition, psychology, self-improvement, creative work, and “systems for living well.”

Milk or No Milk? Tiz the question.

Monday, October 17th, 2011

VIDEO: Dairy, Hormones, and Human Health by Pedro Bastos, MA, MS

If you consume dairy, the video link above is worth watching. In this presentation at the Ancestral Health Symposium from August this year, Mr. Bastos briefly reviews the history of dairy production and how the domestication of cows coincides with the appearance of certain human gene mutation involved in dairy metabolism. He then moves on to discuss the hormonal effects of bovine dairy consumption in humans. He notes that milk contains over 100,000 different substances and the purpose of bovine milk is to assist rapid growth for a newborn calf. Interestingly, he also notes these neonate calves produce very few hormones at this stage in their life and therefore must rely on ingested milk to provide many of the hormones needed in order to rapidly increase size.

So, what is it in milk that promotes growth? The whey fraction in milk promotes insulin release which stores nutrients in tissue throughout the body. This, of course is necessary to supply tissues with needed energy for growth. A bigger concern than temporary spikes in insulin after a meal is an increase in fasting insulin levels, and there is some evidence that fasting insulin levels can rise after only 7 straight days of dairy consumption. Mr. Bastos commented that more studies are needed in this area before any definitive conclusion can be drawn.  Additionally, the casein molecule, while not insulinogenic (i.e., insulin producing), will trigger the production of IGF-1, a very potent growth factor. In fact, growth hormone mediates most of it’s effects throughout the body via IGF-1. In addition, bovine milk itself contains hormones that are likely bioactive once absorbed in the human body. Other known endocrine effects to the milk drinker including increases in estrogen and decreases in testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH). After Mr. Bastos’ presentation, in the question and answer session, someone asked, “When do you think is a good time to stop children from drinking cows milk?” Mr. Bastos turned the question around and asked, “When do you think is a good time to start children drinking cows milk?” Both questions are interesting.

As you might expect, pastoralist cultures of Africa that consume a lot of milk also tend to be very tall. Bodybuilders also recognizes that milk and milk derivatives like whey and casein can support their effort in muscle development. On the flip side, however, there are also concerns that the growth promoters in milk will not only stimulate linear growth (i.e., height) but can also stimulate growth of other tissues, even tumors. A question from the audience later asked Mr. Bastos to explain the apparent paradox then between the Masai, who drink a lot of milk but also have excellent health and very low cancer rates. In reply, he made a important distinction that African pastoralists have a very different lifestyle than many of those currently existing in ‘Western’ societies. Mr Bastos commented that he doesn’t believe IGF-1 itself causes cancer, however, in a stereotypical ‘Western’ environment – containing many genotoxic substances plus poor diet – chronic elevations in IGF-1 levels may increase our risk for cancer by promoting growth of malignancies that otherwise might be destroyed by innate anti-cancer processes.  Plus, a nutrient poor diet can also significantly affect cell cycle control and repair mechanisms, which then may trigger more malignant instances.  Now, you potentially have a perfect storm: An environment that triggers relatively frequent cell aberrations plus a  common dietary staple (i.e., all things dairy) that promotes tissue growth throughout the body. Indeed, IGF-1 promote cell differentiation and growth and thus have been associated with angiogenensis, metastasis, and malignancies.

As a part of the ‘Paleo / Ancestral diet’ movement rapidly growing in popularity, some interpretations suggest adherents give up grains, legumes, and dairy as the basis of a smart dietary strategy. Other approaches are more lenient and recommend reducing dairy consumption and/or limiting it to various milk-product derivatives such as aged cheeses, whey protein, and cream.

We are all responsible to look after our own health and to make the best decisions that align with our estimates of what will yield wellness. If not you, then who? There are other considerations with milk that are not currently discussed in the video or this article. However, if cancer is in your family or simply something you’re concerned about, being aware of this information may help guide your future decisions according to what you prioritize in your life.

Here are some additional notes from the session:


  • >95% of milk in EU is now from cows.
  • Cows are maintained on a highly unnatural milk production schedule.
  • How can milk lead to rapid growth? Maybe insulin.
  • Insulin response is 5x higher than expected for glycemic index. Doesn’t matter if it’s skim or whole.
  • The good: Whey can increase muscle protein synthesis and glutathione, one of the major endogenous antioxidants the body.
  • Betacellulin – Another growth factor in milk. Survives pastorization. Found in cheese.
  • IGF-1 in bovine milk is identical to human IGF-1. Not high amounts in bovine milk.
  • Cows milk has much higher casein levels than found in human milk. Whey is the main fraction in humans.
  • Type of pasteurization matters. Yogurt fermentation decreases IGF-1 by 45%.
  • Increasing height associates with increasing risk for epithelial cell cancers.
  • Milk may promote premature puberty, a risk factor for breast cancer.
  • Prostate cancer shows a high correlation with milk intake.
  • Milk may be protective against colon cancer.
  • Milk seems to promote acne, at least in people who have insulin resistance.
  • What about raw milk? Depends on cow it came from. Was the cow pregnant? Makes a big difference in the amount and types of hormones present in the milk. Grass-fed cows contains CLA which is healthy.
  • Cream is likely safer because it doesn’t contain the growth promoting agents founds in other parts of milk. (Yum, cream in my coffee and tea!).
  • Aging cheese is a good way to reduce some of these growth promoters.

Also, check out a few more opinions on milk and milk products in the Whole 9 Dairy Manifesto, and the Whole 9 Butter Manifesto, and the Weston Price FAQ on dairy.

Have other good dairy links and perspectives? Leave them for all to see in our comments section.

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